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Skeptics: A Rant


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#1 Grisner

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 03:38 PM

Before I begin, I want to clarify the group I am about to discuss. Many people are skeptical about things. You may believe homeopathy is trash, but think chiropractic services are valid, or you may believe in hauntings and are skeptical about ufos. You are not who I am talking about.

I am talking about the group of skeptics that try to dictate that you should only believe what science tells you to believe.  They have formed an almost militant group that seems to wage war on anything other than what science tells them is “true”.

While I believe that there on skeptics that visit this site, let me assure you that my experiences with this group extends well beyond this site. I listen to a number of science podcasts and they seem to be increasingly infected with this particular malaise of skepticism. Their attacks upon religion, the paranormal or any other alternative thinking seems to be increasing almost exponentially.

While most will maintain a level of decorum in these discussions it becomes very clear that their thoughts towards those who believe other than they do is far from acceptable, too me anyway.

If you believe anything other than what science wants you to believe then you are naïve or an idiot. If you present personal experience for your beliefs then you are still an idiot and possibly a liar.

Don’t get me wrong, science is perfect. It is. Scientists and their groupies are not.

Every successive generation must correct the previous generation’s failings in science.  We hear the same thing every time, “ as our knowledge grows we must alter our theories and understanding to match”. We have ALL heard this and it would be okay if information was presented as “to the best of our understanding this is how this works.”

But it’s not.

It is presented as fact until they are proven wrong then they will once again “adjust” and never admit they have essentially lied to us for years, possibly even decades.

I truly believe we are starting to see the aftermath of this. Many people are losing faith is science; anti-vaxxers, global warming deniers, pharmaceutical conspiracy believers,  and many, many more.

The ever-growing skeptical movement in science does little but scoff at these people and makes it clear that they think they are idiots. They don’t listen to them. They don’t listen to people that have had life changing encounters with the paranormal. They don’t listen when patients tell them that a particular non-medically accepted drug helps them (marijuana for instance).  They will hang on the coat tails of currently accepted scientific data and utterly disregard and disparage anyone who believes anything else. Well, until a scientist once again “adjusts” their understanding.

Current rant done. Next:  Alien life and the paradox it creates for skeptics.

#2 siguie

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 06:39 PM

Personally I think directing this rant at "skeptics" is a bit off it's more like a large number of these people choose to call themselves skeptics to give there cause validity and they also happen to give skeptics a bad name.

I think you are really just refering to those people who have chosen a side and want to fight about it. It can be skeptics, atheists, religious fanatics or anyone who just believes they are right and everyone else needs to think the way they do.

There's not much to be done about this since these people exist on all sides ... they are just very myopic, generally rude people who need to justify being mean or ornery.

There's nothing wrong with being a skeptic :no: nor saying I believe ... whatever ... because it is what I like to believe :yes: The problem are the people who feel that everyone has to see everything the same way as they do and are willing to force the issue.


Anywho feel free to rant away :yes: I just wanted to add my 2 cents ... oh and real skeptics will change their minds when presented with sufficient reliable evidence, those who don't I just refer to as naysayers 'cuz even when shown to be wrong they are still gonna say nu uh :no:
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#3 Snowlord

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 05:20 PM

View Postsiguie, on 15 June 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

...  oh and real skeptics will change their minds when presented with sufficient reliable evidence ...

This quote clip is the crux of the entire matter, and the answer to most of your rants. The people that "science", in the way that you describe it, is antagonistic towards are not the people who simply believe in anything outside it's realm, and hope for more than what we can see and measure, but those who claim to have proven it to such a degree that they can sell it, or teach it, or use it, or convert people to it, or whatever else they do with it. These are the people who are causing all the problems you have ranted about, not the scientists or science itself. Science and scientists need to stand up to these people and show the world that they have nothing reliable to offer beyond the comfort of belief. If we become too used to accepting people's claims without validating evidence then we will be soon heading back into another dark age.

History has shown that anyone, scientist or not, who can offer enough convincing evidence for an idea or theory not generally accepted at the time will eventually get through and be accepted with persistence. It sometimes takes more work than most are wiling to do, but that is sometimes what it takes. If the evidence is there, it will be eventually approved. Most people today with alternative ideas are not willing to put that much work into proving their ideas, and just go the route of promoting and marketing it anyway. This is not a good thing and needs to be shown to be wrong. Science is just getting a bad rap lately because it is the only thing able to do that.

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#4 CDS

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 02:34 AM

View PostSnowlord, on 16 June 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

If we become too used to accepting people's claims without validating evidence then we will be soon heading back into another dark age.

Perfect example of religion. Blind belief.

#5 Grisner

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 02:13 PM

Hey siguie,

I do agree that there are mini groups in any group that takes things to the edge of sense. Not all skeptics are like that and I know this.
I did try to describe the type of skeptic I am talking about by their behavior, attitude and beliefs to separate them from the "good" skeptic.

So, if in the course on my continuing rants, if my term "skeptic" is not at all what you are as a skeptic, then disregard my rant as it is not directed at you or those who do not fit the criteria.

#6 MrChiLambda

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 10:01 AM

OP, I truly enjoy dropping this one every now and then.

Where does the Earths Water come from? Hydrogen + Oxygen + Atmopheric Lightning = Water.

If they go on about comets, which surely they will as they have zero capacity to think spatially, this one does the trick.

https://www.youtube....h?v=z1oza6jybOA

Edited by MrChiLambda, 19 June 2015 - 10:02 AM.


#7 siguie

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 01:23 PM

View PostGrisner, on 17 June 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

Hey siguie,

I do agree that there are mini groups in any group that takes things to the edge of sense. Not all skeptics are like that and I know this.
I did try to describe the type of skeptic I am talking about by their behavior, attitude and beliefs to separate them from the "good" skeptic.

So, if in the course on my continuing rants, if my term "skeptic" is not at all what you are as a skeptic, then disregard my rant as it is not directed at you or those who do not fit the criteria.


Oh no worries I understand who/what you are referring to :yes: and I did not mean to disuade you from your stance :no: It's just my opinion that those people are not really "skeptics" they just like to think they are. Everyone is free to have their own opinion and that was just mine ... no criticism of your rant was intended :no:
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#8 Snowlord

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 04:26 AM

View PostMrChiLambda, on 19 June 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:


Where does the Earths Water come from? Hydrogen + Oxygen + Atmopheric Lightning = Water.

If they go on about comets, which surely they will as they have zero capacity to think spatially, this one does the trick.

https://www.youtube....h?v=z1oza6jybOA

Right ... like I am going to accept alternative geology and physics from a comic book author. No good science to support those theories, or more likely just hypothesies.

#9 MacQdor

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Posted 23 June 2015 - 07:42 AM

Some people will be forever skeptics no matter how much evidence you bring before them.  History is literered with these inviduals. We have them in our family. Some of us are the same way just about different things.  Things that make us who we are we hold dear to even though over time it may be revealed that some of which we hold dear to is false.

Man was meant to evolve and that includes his or her thinking and view of the world. But dont ever forget some people will just choose to be skeptics till the "cows come home."


No amount of evidence will ever suffice. They loose to much of themselves by believing.
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#10 Jim@GhostStudy

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Posted 23 June 2015 - 11:08 AM

Thank you MacQdor.

I think skeptics are more likely to chime in than the believers... at least on this forum. And that's fine... but I just wish I could hear more well thought out ideas and logic from both sides. I think that would be especially helpful. Sometimes I wonder if the believers (with their grand logic and insight) are afraid to voice in favor of a photo or experience simply to avoid a debate. After all, this is a paranormal/supernatural forum. And most of its viewers are believers that have firsthand and real life experiences in these things.

Don't get me wrong, I learn more from the skeptics than I ever do with the believers... they keep us all in check... and I love that! I just want to hear more from the opposing views with their logic and insight as well. As a believer, I'm not afraid to stand up for a photo or an experience if I see the logic in it. I don't have to dedicate my reputation on it, but simply present my understanding and logic to the conversation. And I have to admit, there is some reluctance for me to do that in certain settings.

I guess that's my rant.  :)
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#11 Grisner

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Posted 23 June 2015 - 03:35 PM

There are far too many stories of personal experiences for it all to be nothing more than misinterpretations or deceptions. There is far more going on that what science understands and that is the weakness of the skeptic. If science can't explain it, then it doesn't exist. This seems a bit short sighted to me considering how much of the physical world that even scientists and skeptics alike must admit is not understood.

Dark matter isn't even something we can detect. We only say that it must exist or what we think we know is wrong. Sounds kind of paranormal to me LoL.

#12 Snowlord

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Posted 23 June 2015 - 05:15 PM

View PostGrisner, on 23 June 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

There are far too many stories of personal experiences for it all to be nothing more than misinterpretations or deceptions. There is far more going on that what science understands and that is the weakness of the skeptic. If science can't explain it, then it doesn't exist. This seems a bit short sighted to me considering how much of the physical world that even scientists and skeptics alike must admit is not understood.

Dark matter isn't even something we can detect. We only say that it must exist or what we think we know is wrong. Sounds kind of paranormal to me LoL.

Stories of personal experience will never add up to reliable evidence, no matter how many. Simple numbers is not evidence. A thousand million zeroes still equals zero.

I don't think you will find many scientists that think if they can't explain something then it doesn't exist.  It would be more accurate to say that if they can't see any evidence for something, then they might tend to say it doesn't exist. If there is "something", then there must be some evidence for it or it would not merit that word to describe it. If a scientist sees this evidence, but still can't explain it, they will not say it doesn't exist. They will just admit that it is an unknown. Gravity is a good example of this. The paranormal is not.

The example of dark matter is not anything like the paranormal at all. We have lots of good physical evidence that leads to the necessity of something existing that they don't know of yet in this area. The paranormal, on the other hand, has no reliable evidence from start to the present. Very different.

#13 Grisner

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 08:55 AM

Yes, snowlord, I know you and many skeptics utterly discount all personal experiences as garbage. But these experiences are anything but garbage to those that experience them. You can diatribe all you want about how it has no meaning or value but such is not the case to far too many. You don't have to believe. I wouldn't expect many too believe without a personal experience but your willingness to discount those that were once skeptics but have had a life altering experience as little more than liars leaves your skeptical biases clear.

Your willingness to engage in confirmation bias (10 reasons bigfoot is a bust) shows that you don't follow the strict guidelines one would expect from one that appears to promote the concepts of science alone.

And seriously, The fact that we exist is not evidence of alien life. How or where you came up with that is astounding and only shows that your willingness to fabricate "facts" rather than admit a point has been made. Considering the extreme level of your skeptical bias I am utterly confused why anyone would want you to look at their possible paranormal evidence. There is nothing that you will not do or say to deny anything other than what you believe based upon your "skeptic" status.

#14 MacQdor

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 04:51 PM

Science is not the authority of what exists or what can't exists. It can only make a determiantion through proper study and proper analysis and even with that other variables could still be at play. Things exists not because science says it does. Things exists because they can: the Paranormal is no exception.

There are too many things existing right now thats cience can't yet explain does that mean they dont exist? Of course they do.  As humans our brains are wired to not depend solely on science but to rely on the 5 senses nature (God) birthed us with.

That which is paranormal just means science or society for that matter has yet to make a determiantion as to the root cause of its existance. Thats all that paranormal means.

People see things. People experience things throughout life. Through out this world that will never fit within the confines of science let alone a laboratory for it to be investigated.  And they exist and will continue to exist long after we're gone.

Somethings man is not meant to figure out.  Paranormal, UFO's, etc might be one of those things that forever remain a mystery.  But dont tell people what they experience seen, smelt or heard or tasted doesn't exist. When in fact it does.
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#15 siguie

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 08:30 PM

Ok I admit this is one of my pet peeves and I just have issues with people saying "science" is an authority over something or that science/scientists need to do this or that.

At it's core "science" is just away of thinking and approaching an unknown in a systematic way that builds on what is already known or accepted so that when a conclusion or explanation is reached it will make sense and follow a logical progression that others will be able to follow, understand and hopefully accept.

Saying that science is an authority over a topic is like saying a flowchart on how to research is an authority ... it just doesn't work that way.

If someone tells me their paranormal experience and I ask a bunch of questions that they may not appreciate I'm not saying they are lying or that "science" thinks they are idiots. I'm just trying to rule out possible explanations and see if they can provide any steps towards something that can be verified.

For the most part new or unexplained phenomena are too many steps away to create a logical path to an understanding. To make matters worse the path is rarely straightforward and the steps frequently need to be pieced together like a jigsaw puzzle and whatever might be gleened from questioning a personal experience could be one of those pieces.


So here's the thing ... IF science can explain a phenomena through a logical progression from what is already known and accepted then great woohoo +1 for science :yes: But when it cannot then pretty much everyone is in the same boat and people who are arguing about whatever are just rooting for their own team.

Oh and skeptics are not necessarily scientists nor do they necessarily have any better understanding of science than anyone else. Poor science arguments just hold more weight than saying "you're wrong because I believe this other thing".

Then on the other side of the coin are people who use bad science to try and convince others of their beliefs which is what I think Snowlord was going on about.


Whew ok I feel better ... we now take you back to your original scheduled rant still in progress ... ;)
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#16 Jim@GhostStudy

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 12:07 AM

Thank you to everyone that has posted... there have been some valid points made and some things I agree with wholeheartedly. As a matter of fact, I may use some of what we have here concerning science and the paranormal for a short article on GhostStudy.
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#17 CDS

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 06:47 AM

It's been my observation that most people that would comment on evidence, only comment when they find something wrong with it.

I've seen this trend on every forum I've visited. Anyone that posts something, if it's solid evidence there will be very few replies if any. This goes for audio and video.

This does not make sense to me as I would think GOOD evidence would attract some kind of feed back or cause people to have some kind of reaction at least. What does silence say>? It tells me people are quick to react when they find fault with something and become silent observers when not beating something up.

#18 Grisner

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 07:39 AM

I am guilty of that to some extent. I guess if I can't find anything wrong with some piece of evidence then there is little more than I can say. Perhaps I should be more positive towards those times and give positive input. Thanks for pointing this out.

#19 CDS

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 08:40 AM

View PostGrisner, on 26 June 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:

I am guilty of that to some extent. I guess if I can't find anything wrong with some piece of evidence then there is little more than I can say. Perhaps I should be more positive towards those times and give positive input. Thanks for pointing this out.

I think we all are, and it goes farther then just paranormal evidence. Happens all the time through out the day with everyone. I'm tuned into it. At the elementary school I work at, we concentrate on encouraging peer to peer positive reinforcement along with a "community environment".

#20 Jim@GhostStudy

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 10:16 AM

Thank you CDS... you said exactly what I have been thinking all along. Most are quick to judge against a proposed ghost photo… but very few are willing to consider those aspects of a photo that might actually suggest validity. I'm closing down the Mailbag Forum for that very reason.
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