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Organizations That Cover Up Wrongdoing Within = Morons.


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#1 SpukiKitty

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 10:55 AM

[NOTE: 'Nonce' is a British euphemism for a sexual abuser of kids. Short and to-the-point and covers pedo/ephebe/hebophilia]

A BIT "TEAL DEER" BUT I BROKE IT UP TO MAKE IT EASIER TO READ....

I've always been baffled by organizations that coverup members indiscretions rather than deal with them. Many keep doing it despite common knowledge that it always makes them look worse.

I've read about the junk with Penn State, The Roman Catholic Church, other church denominations and religious institutions, secular institutions, etc.

The crime will always be found out, eventually! Why cover up when you can save the organization's integrity and credibility by ditching the bad apples....which is easier and with a lot less litigation and headaches?

The case concerning the RC Church is especially mind-boggling. They protect and cover up all these nonce priests and....despite vowing otherwise....continue to do so! These guys are obsessed with protecting the Church's image as this great moral and spiritual authority but are too stupid to realize that covering stuff up is what ruins their rep!

It's obvious to anyone with a brain: Root out the bad priests, defrock them, prosecute them and protect and aid the victims and your reputation as an institution will SOAR and the pews will fill and you will be admired and loved!

But the idiots in charge refuse common sense. It gives the impression that they support and encourage noncery....and they HAVE THE GAL TO WONDER WHY PEOPLE ARE LEAVING THE CHURCH!

Look! I get it! The RC has had a priest shortage! I get it that a lot less guys are joining! I get that you need men to perform clerical duties but there's not enough!

But rather than solving all these issues with 86ing mandatory celibacy, allowing women, and rooting out bad apples....they dig their heels! The early church didn't have celibacy! Celibacy was invented in the Middle Ages so the Church could hold on to more property rather than see it disperse to spouses, offspring and family! It's not something instituted by Jesus!

As for the woman thing....okay; I can understand (but still greatly disagree because women as religious authority is awesome and vital and women/The Feminine are made equal to men/The Masculine) concerning certain verses attributed to Paul of Tarsus....but it should still be considered! At least allow women to be Deacons (which is very Biblical and mentioned in the New Testament).

The thing is; If you adapt with the times and root out the bad apples and support the victims, your credibility will skyrocket and more will want to join! With the option of marriage and relationships restored for the clergy, many more will be interested in becoming clergy! The Priest shortage will end and ditching the bad ones will be easy!

What is it with various institutions who cover up or are rotten to members? They care so much about image, wealth, power, etc. but are too stupid to realize that doing the right thing is a win-win for everybody!
  • Investing in paying good wages and treating employees well makes a happier better worker and a better product more will buy and the investment pays for itself in the long run (Profit-obsessed CEOs take note)!
  • Rooting out miscreants in your organization will show the world that you are awesome and worthy of respect and will protect your reputation (Police, Colleges, Govt. Institutions, Religious institutions, take note).
I don't get it! How can so many otherwise intelligent people fail so badly at basic common sense and psychology?! I sometimes wonder if they're really just sociopath sadists and jerks who want their cake and eat it, too?

Edited by SpukiKitty, 23 April 2018 - 10:58 AM.

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#2 LouczarGStudy

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 12:48 PM

Very good point!

I was at a confirmation recently for my wifes niece.  The oldest pastor of the very rigid Lutheran Church spoke to the congregation.  " I am so happy to see so many young faces here today.  This is our next generation of Christians to our church.  As the current or previous generations moves on, it is important that we change our methods that are dated to a more current type of church and service.  If we dont, we are 1 generation away from non existence.

Sadly, the man passed away before he could make any changes.

This brings up a joke my Pastor told me years ago at our Lutheran Church.

How many Lutherans does it take to change a light bulb?    Change!?!??????  :-)
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#3 SpukiKitty

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 06:59 PM

View PostLouczarGStudy, on 23 April 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

Very good point!

I was at a confirmation recently for my wifes niece.  The oldest pastor of the very rigid Lutheran Church spoke to the congregation.  " I am so happy to see so many young faces here today.  This is our next generation of Christians to our church.  As the current or previous generations moves on, it is important that we change our methods that are dated to a more current type of church and service.  If we dont, we are 1 generation away from non existence.

Sadly, the man passed away before he could make any changes.

This brings up a joke my Pastor told me years ago at our Lutheran Church.

How many Lutherans does it take to change a light bulb? Change!?!??????  :-)

It's a shame he passed away; However, his message may have planted a seed. There's still hope.

If the RC Church refuses to change, there's actually a number of non-Vatican-affiliated Catholic Churches out there that are more progressive....
https://en.wikipedia...tholic_movement
....these churches need to be known so they can grow, spread and become mainstream. Practicing Catholics need to know that there are alternatives out there.

When in doubt; A Roman Catholic can become an Episcopalian.

And really; The mindset of The Vatican baffles me. Covering up makes them look worse! Rooting out the nonces makes them look better! If you look better, people will fill the pews!

I really do wonder if they're secretly pro-nonce. Many victims are male and teenagers at the time, maybe it's a weird "Ancient Roman Pederasty Tradition" thing or they assume that if the kid in question is a cute young dude who's voice broke and has some pubes (pardon me) then it's not so bad ('He's a man! He can take it! It wasn't a child! Teen guys like sex anyway! The kid's a hot teen dream and tempted Father O'Reilly! Etc! Etc!') and that the guys in charge see it more an "annoying vice, like lying to your mom" than a "vile act of evil, like murder".

I really don't get it at all and I am astounded at how utterly resistant to adapting with the times he RC Church is, even when faced with scriptural arguments and the prospect that adapting will save the church.

I'm not anti-Catholic at all and would gladly speak out against virulent Anti-Catholic bigotry but that doesn't mean the Catholic Church can't be criticized.

It's not the religion....It's the guys running it.

Edited by SpukiKitty, 23 April 2018 - 07:03 PM.

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#4 earthlydelitesGStudy

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 01:18 AM

Cover ups I believe stem from fear - and perhaps an expectation that by denying they are assisting the 'greater good'? What about good old denial? All of these things are what I think are in play, it doesn't make the actions right, but we all look for answers to why these horrible things are allowed to occur.
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#5 SpukiKitty

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 07:04 AM

View PostearthlydelitesGStudy, on 24 April 2018 - 01:18 AM, said:

Cover ups I believe stem from fear - and perhaps an expectation that by denying they are assisting the 'greater good'? What about good old denial? All of these things are what I think are in play, it doesn't make the actions right, but we all look for answers to why these horrible things are allowed to occur.

I know; Time to get the word out....IT DOESN'T WORK AND IS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE!
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#6 True North

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Posted 25 April 2018 - 11:52 AM

The Roman Catholic Church is not run by morons. Upper management know what they're doing.

#7 Dazzled Dad

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Posted 25 April 2018 - 11:57 AM

View PostTrue North, on 25 April 2018 - 11:52 AM, said:

Upper management know what they're doing.

That makes it even worse.

#8 SpukiKitty

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 10:25 AM

I think they don't do anything about the bad priests due to the priest shortage. There's a worldwide priest shortage out there and they can't afford to lose more priests. THAT'S WHY they don't do anything about this!

What gets me is that they refuse to adopt the solutions to the priest shortage....
* Allow women.
* Make the priesthood celibacy-optional.
....Many Catholic women are called to the priesthood but can't fulfill that vocation because The Vatican won't let them and there are many who would be fine being priest but don't want to give up having a love life.

So many practicing Catholics who want to serve the Church....but can't....

Married Priests are biblical! The NT also describes Deaconesses. The Vatican needs to suck it up and change the rules! It's either change or the denomination dies!

* Change the rules, end the Priest shortage, punish the pervs and reclaim credibility and respect, thus saving the Church and getting new life.

....or....

* Stay the same. The amount of priests dwindle, cover up everything, look worse, everyone hates you, the Church dies.

NO CONTEST! OPTION #1! EASY!

WHY IS IT SO DARN HARD, VATICAN?! WOMEN ARE NOT KRYPTONITE! PAUL IS NOT JESUS! PAUL CAN BE WRONG! THE CHURCH FATHERS CAN BE WRONG! ADAM SINNED TOO AND SEX & MARRIAGE IS AWESOME! CHEEZE LOUISE!
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#9 MacCionoadha BeanSidhe

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 11:07 AM

Right, the first priests were married. You can still be married, but the marriage must happen before ordination. Also, you may not remarry if you no longer have a wife.

Quote

   When Did the Catholic Church Decide Priests Should Be Celibate?

The Church was a thousand years old before it definitively took a stand in favor of celibacy in the twelfth century at the Second Lateran Council held in 1139, when a rule was approved forbidding priests to marry. In 1563, the Council of Trent reaffirmed the tradition of celibacy.

Source



Quote

Clerical celibacy (Catholic Church)

Clerical celibacy is the discipline within the Catholic Church by which only unmarried men are ordained to the episcopate, to the priesthood (as a rule to which exceptions are sometimes made for individuals) in some autonomous particular Churches, and similarly to the diaconate, though in this last case exceptions exist not only for single individuals but for whole categories of people. In other autonomous particular Churches, the discipline applies only to ordination to the episcopate.
Chief of the Catholic particular Churches that follow this discipline is the Latin Church, but among the Eastern Catholic Churches, at least the Ethiopic Catholic Church applies it also.

In this context, "celibacy" retains its original meaning of "unmarried". Though even the married may observe continence, abstaining from sexual intercourse, the obligation to be celibate is seen as a consequence of the obligation to observe perfect and perpetual continence for the sake of the Kingdom of heaven. Advocates see clerical celibacy as "a special gift of God by which sacred ministers can more easily remain close to Christ with an undivided heart, and can dedicate themselves more freely to the service of God and their neighbour."

Theological and scriptural foundations

Theologically, the Church teaches that priesthood is a ministry conformed to the life and work of Jesus Christ. Priests as sacramental ministers act in persona Christi, that is in the person of Christ. Thus the life of the priest conforms, the Church believes, to the chastity of Christ himself. The sacrifice of married life is for the "sake of the Kingdom" (Luke 18:28–30, Matthew 19:27–30), and to follow the example of Jesus Christ in being "married" to the Church, viewed by Catholicism and many Christian traditions as the "Bride of Christ" (following Ephesians 5:25-33 and Revelation 21:9, together with the spousal imagery at Mark 2:19-20; cf. Matthew 9:14-15).

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) in Salt of the Earth saw this practice as based on Jesus' words in Matthew 19:12: "Some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it." He linked this celibacy "because of the kingdom of heaven" with God's choice to confer the Old Testament priesthood on a specific tribe, that of Levi, which unlike the other tribes received no land from God, but which had "God himself as its inheritance" (Numbers 1:48–53).

Paul, within a context of having "no command from the Lord" (1 Cor 7:25), recommends celibacy, but acknowledges that it is not God's gift to all within the church: "For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that. But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am, ... I want you to be without care. He who is unmarried cares for the things of the Lord – how he may please the Lord. But he who is married cares about the things of the world – how he may please his wife. There is a difference between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman cares about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she who is married cares about the things of the world – how she may please her husband. And this I say for your own profit, not that I may put a leash on you, but for what is proper, and that you may serve the Lord without distraction" (1 Corinthians 7:7–8, 7:32–35). Peter Brown and Bart D. Ehrman speculate that for early Christians celibacy had to do with the “imminent end of the age” (1 Corinthians 7:29-31)


Source


Edited by MacCionoadha BeanSidhe, 26 April 2018 - 11:10 AM.

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#10 SpukiKitty

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 05:40 AM

View PostMacCionoadha BeanSidhe, on 26 April 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:

Right, the first priests were married. You can still be married, but the marriage must happen before ordination. Also, you may not remarry if you no longer have a wife.




[/i]

Perhaps the Vatican needs to look into WHY there is a priest shortage. I can understand the stuff in those links and how married priests can be a thing.

That said; They need to get to the bottom of the priest shortage thing or at least come up with something like an order of Deacons where the standards of joining are more relaxed (like being a woman, married, in a relationship, etc.). They could be associated with an actual ordained Priest and carry out his duties as a proxy. The association with said Priest would make it valid. They could be called Priest-Proxy or simply a Proxy...or "Proximus". Thus; If there are no Priests around, have "Proxmi" (Abbreviated as 'Pr.' like thus, 'Pr. Patty Johnson' or 'Pr. James Brian' or 'Pr. Marco Santiago').

If a woman feels called to the Priesthood, she can become a Proximus, thus becoming an extension of an ordained male Priest.

There! A compromise! Women/married/non-celibates can perform Priestly duties but since they're doing it as a PROXY of an actual ordained Clergyman (be it Priest, Bishop, etc.), it'll be seen as if the Clergyman in question was doing it.

With the Office of Proximus (plural, 'Proximi'), the Priest shortage isn't a huge issue....thus, the Vatican is now free to get tough on the pervs in their ranks. There may be a big chunk of Clergy gone after the purge but the Proximus will pick up the slack.

Then the Vatican needs to come up with a way to make the Priesthood sound cool so folks will want to become one!

Also; They need to stop being so darn tone-deaf when speaking about abuse survivors!

I'm aware of corruption in the Vatican but I also would like to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to being a valid religious institution. I'm not among the "Roman Catholic Church is a Religion of Evil" people. It's a perfectly fine, valid institution like any other spiritual path. The problem is that there's a lot of complete sausageheads and stick-in-muds in it. Most Clergy are good people and there have been plenty of Catholic Priests who have spoken out against the corruption and abuse.

Finally; I think a lot of the Higher-Ups who are dismissive of survivors may actually legitimately not understand how traumatic it is and have a very antiquated mindset of "Teen = Adult". A large chunk of these survivors were teens when the abuse happened and not small children. The guys in charge may see the abuse thing as genuinely bad but not in a "devastatingly bad thing" since they're picturing some "non-violent but coercive sexual affair" between a Priest and a "handsome semi-grown younger dude"....they see it as a "mutual pervyness" thing and can't quite get how mind-blowingly violating it was for the guys who were abused.

Girls got abused too and I could point to male-chauvinism and the above reason for why those survivors get thrown under the bus.

I truly feel that the Vatican feels that becoming a Clergyman makes you "holy" and that they're "tempted against their will" by that "hot young teenage altar boy". It's a terrible way of thinking and a disgusting excuse. It's not the kid's fault at all!

Edited by SpukiKitty, 28 April 2018 - 06:00 AM.

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#11 LouczarGStudy

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 08:15 AM

I had a conversation several years ago with my pastor at our Methodist Church.  She was a very down to earth type person and we got along very well.  I could talk to her about religion in many different arenas.  She is the one who I feels was the most honest and open in these types of discussions.

We were talking about the Catholic church one day and how the priests cant marry.  She gave me a slight smile and asked me if I knew why.  Having not been educated in religious study as she had been, all I could say was what was brought up by someone in my past that I cannot even remember who said it.  I told her that someone told me once that the catholic church had made this a requirement at a time when wealth / land gave power.  That the Catholic church made this change because they knew the son would be the person to inherit the families land and such.  If he went unmarried and had no children. His inheritance would fall to the church and thus expanding their wealth / power.

I do remember her saying that my exact statement was brought up and discussed when she was in school...as well as scriptures and other teachings in classes.  Talking about priests preying on young boys was the one topic that she never liked to discuss.
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#12 SpukiKitty

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 09:20 AM

View PostLouczarGStudy, on 28 April 2018 - 08:15 AM, said:

I had a conversation several years ago with my pastor at our Methodist Church.  She was a very down to earth type person and we got along very well.  I could talk to her about religion in many different arenas.  She is the one who I feels was the most honest and open in these types of discussions.

We were talking about the Catholic church one day and how the priests cant marry.  She gave me a slight smile and asked me if I knew why.  Having not been educated in religious study as she had been, all I could say was what was brought up by someone in my past that I cannot even remember who said it.  I told her that someone told me once that the catholic church had made this a requirement at a time when wealth / land gave power.  That the Catholic church made this change because they knew the son would be the person to inherit the families land and such.  If he went unmarried and had no children. His inheritance would fall to the church and thus expanding their wealth / power.

I do remember her saying that my exact statement was brought up and discussed when she was in school...as well as scriptures and other teachings in classes.  Talking about priests preying on young boys was the one topic that she never liked to discuss.

Yup; I head that, too. Well; It's biting them on the butt, now.

Anyway; Those who are still practicing Catholics should still bring up the Proxy idea. I think it's a good idea.
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#13 MacCionoadha BeanSidhe

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 09:38 AM

What you both say is correct. I wish the Catholic Church would approve a "lay-person," or a Deacon/Deaconess be allowed to be a proxy. Even the Protestant Church has a shortage of Reverends. We only have one once a month here, sometimes even less. We have a "Lay-person/Deacon for the other Sundays." Our congregational church has been around since the 1700's; I hope it can weather this storm of reverend shortages.

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#14 SpukiKitty

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 07:25 AM

View PostMacCionoadha BeanSidhe, on 28 April 2018 - 09:38 AM, said:

What you both say is correct. I wish the Catholic Church would approve a "lay-person," or a Deacon/Deaconess be allowed to be a proxy. Even the Protestant Church has a shortage of Reverends. We only have one once a month here, sometimes even less. We have a "Lay-person/Deacon for the other Sundays." Our congregational church has been around since the 1700's; I hope it can weather this storm of reverend shortages.

Someone in the Church needs to bring up this idea to the Church.
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#15 MacCionoadha BeanSidhe

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 12:11 PM

I hope they do, as well.

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#16 True North

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Posted 01 May 2018 - 11:40 AM

Criminal activity within large organizations like the church is not only covered up by the organizations themselves, but by entire local communities who rather not have their nice little world rocked.

Making criminal allegations against esteemed members of one's community often means facing a ton of negative social backlash. Even when the accused are charged and found guilty, those who initially dared to come forward can still find themselves ostracized by members of their church and the town in general (who didn't want to hear about it in the first place, and who very much want to continue about their business like it never happened).

#17 KlaineyGStudy

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Posted 01 May 2018 - 09:16 PM

We seem to be making a lot of noise down-under with Cardinal Pell
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#18 earthlydelitesGStudy

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Posted 02 May 2018 - 12:57 AM

I came in here to say the same thing Klainey! He should be taken to trial.
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#19 KlaineyGStudy

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Posted 02 May 2018 - 09:38 PM

Yes for sure
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#20 LouczarGStudy

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 05:20 AM

WOW!!!  I had not heard about him until you mentioned it and I looked it up.

https://www.npr.org/...x-abuse-charges

very sad for all that has happened to these children at the hands of these so called "spiritual" leaders...
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