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Five Hard To Swallow Facts About Paranormal Research


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#1 Vlawde

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 11:57 AM

Saw this on Facebook in a few paranormal groups. Agree or disagree? http://thepierianele...ormal-research/
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#2 Tantric KittenGStudy

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 12:21 PM

I think that what is being presented is technically true.  There is a lack of replicable experimentation.  But what is being completely ignored is that in sciences that deal with human beings we don't really expect 100% replicability.  We look for predictive analysis and more likely than not.  A drug that has been tested thoroughly and given the green light still has adverse effects for some people.  It is accepted because it's more likely than not to do good rather than harm.  Psychology is almost entirely speculative and based on the same sort of self-reporting and observation that paranormal research is.

No.  We can't prove it yet.  That doesn't mean the whole field is Rubbish and the serious work being done is worthless.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. --Herm Albright

#3 Spacebread

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 01:14 PM

View PostTantric Kitten, on 08 January 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

I think that what is being presented is technically true.  There is a lack of replicable experimentation.  But what is being completely ignored is that in sciences that deal with human beings we don't really expect 100% replicability.  We look for predictive analysis and more likely than not.  A drug that has been tested thoroughly and given the green light still has adverse effects for some people.  It is accepted because it's more likely than not to do good rather than harm.  Psychology is almost entirely speculative and based on the same sort of self-reporting and observation that paranormal research is.

No.  We can't prove it yet.  That doesn't mean the whole field is Rubbish and the serious work being done is worthless.


100% replication isn't required. Even 20% would do for science venues to take it seriously (That's even lower than the drug standards) but the field can't even produce replication to that degree. They can't even reliably replicate with predictability in a controlled situation even 1%.  

The biggest problem is people don't look to replicate it under controlled conditions. Everyone is hell bent on taking pictures, video and audio and stop there thinking they found "proof". Those things will never prove it.  The scientific Journal "Nature" was ranked the world's most cited scientific journal by the Science Edition of the 2010 Journal Citation Reports, is ascribed an impact factor of approximately 42.4, and is widely regarded as one of the few remaining academic journals that publishes original research across a wide range of scientific fields. Here is what they say about Paranormal Research:

"Parascience has so far failed to produce a single repeatable finding and, until it does, will continue to be viewed as an incoherent collection of belief systems steeped in fantasy, illusion and error."

http://www.nature.co...s/320119a0.html

Edited by Spacebread, 08 January 2016 - 01:16 PM.


#4 Tantric KittenGStudy

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 01:37 PM

I take exception to your directing your comment entirely at me.  Giving your opinion (as I did) is one thing.  As is making points based off what previous posts have said.  This felt like an attack and has completely turned me off from even beginning to discuss what otherwise would be things to consider and discuss.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. --Herm Albright

#5 siguie

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 01:56 PM

View PostTantric Kitten, on 08 January 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

I take exception to your directing your comment entirely at me.  Giving your opinion (as I did) is one thing.  As is making points based off what previous posts have said.  This felt like an attack and has completely turned me off from even beginning to discuss what otherwise would be things to consider and discuss.

Easy there TK it's just some noob making an overly harsh, critical and generally biased opening post. Science isn't even a thing you do it's just a way to approach new phenomena and even scientists don't agree on their results but it's still science :yes:

Oh and FYI there are a number of drugs that literally do not work as well as placebos BUT they managed to get FDA approval because science can be really good at massaging data 8)
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#6 JIMOverSeer

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 04:30 PM

Peace and joy... let's move on.  :)
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#7 CuriousGeorge

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 12:33 AM

My dream is to find a location that our group can return to on a fairly regular basis, hopefully once a month. I want to try to convince my group to set up an investigation protocol to follow each time, applying as much 'scientific method' to our research as we can. Since my wife's a PhD microbiologist, we have a mentor among us to guide the protocol. The problem will be to get the other members to agree to what will likely be rather boring, compared to the 'standard' investigation methodology.
The good thing is that my dream is within reach... maybe. We have a member who might be able to secure us ongoing access to a site we investigated, and got quite a bit of interesting results from.
Keep your fingers crossed for me.

As for the article...
Yup, audio, video and photos aren't proof. They are, however, the best we can obtain at the time, given current investigation procedures. I think that they do indicate that more study and investigation methods are warranted. It's like politics and religion... we aren't going to change anyone's mind if they don't believe, unless we make like the Ghostbusters and capture a ghost in our little boxes. ;)
The second point is actually a big issue with me. We do hear what we expect to hear in those ghost box, Echovox, et al sessions. I firmly believe that if an investigator wants to make a video of their amazing session, they should NOT put subtitles telling us what they think they heard. Let us listen, then review the results at the end. Otherwise pareidolia kicks in. Try it sometime; listen without watching, write down what you hear, then compare it to their subtitled results.
The third point speaks for itself. Unless and until someone experiences things for themselves, or knows the credibility of the investigator, our experience means nothing to them. Sigh.
Number four... hmm. Part of the issue with this one is the general lack of repeated investigations by a given group at one location. Say, for example, you have a lengthy 'Yes-No' conversation with an EMF meter, getting repeated logical answers, via light flashes, to your questions. That is interesting and compelling. But if you have returned to the same place a few times, and have repeated 'conversations' via an EMF meter, then you have something harder to dismiss. (Yup, speaking from experience, got the one conversation, in two different rooms. Haven't been back, but it's a pay to play place, so I will return!)
Number five. See numbers 1-4, particularly the one about not being able to convince someone who doesn't want to believe. Again, we have indicators, anomalies, anecdotes.... I feel that the sheer number of them, across cultures, across eras, warrants the consideration that 'life after death' is something possible.

So we keep investigating,  and we all keep hoping for that EVENT. The one that makes people sit up and think twice. My personal opinion is that science will eventually give us an answer, if the answer is Yes, there is something After. I just hope it's sooner than later.

#8 Vlawde

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 06:45 AM

When watching investigation videos, be it a ghost box, or to a lesser degree just plain EVP's, I rarely hear what the investigators say they hear, often it;s very different. Straight EVP's are a bit better, you can hear a voice and syllables. But it's all about perception, what mine is may be different than someone else's.
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#9 Spacebread

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 05:46 AM

I deleted a comment I felt unnecessary just to keep the thread on track ~ Vlawde

If you need to "believe" in something for the concept to become valid, then it's simply not factual. Plain and simple.  To accept that someone has communicated with a spirit using a device I would need to believe in the following:

1. That spirits exists
2. That they can hear us
3. That they retain memory
4. That they can communicate in our language
5. That the device is capable of receiving their communication
6. That the person is capable of differentiating between noise, living voices and spirit voices effectively.
7. That the whole experience isn't somehow hoaxed

Even if we disregard number 7, ALL of the other items require belief (because we have zero data to support any of them). It's not simply about "believing in paranormal phenomena" or that it's possible, .It requires that we jump over some tremendous holes in research that have been filled with speculation to arrive at the end result - in this case 6 items (and there are more). Paranormal researchers should be working on proving item number one and realize that a voice on a recorder or a strange photo does not prove a spirit exists. They need to be able to connect the dots to each on order for that to be true and that requires proving a lot of missing principles.

Other accepted scientific subjects do not require belief in any stage of explaining or understanding them, and you can't validate an unknown with an unknown. That's like saying Bigfoot can't be found because Aliens beam him up nightly.

#10 Spacebread

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 10:26 AM

To be fair, how about deleting the comments that instigated the response too?

#11 Vlawde

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 10:42 AM

How about we just move on
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#12 chapsparanormal

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 11:48 AM

I do agree with the article for the most part.
The most serous paranormal teams get laughed out by the science community. Anything is fallible and as humans we want something we go for. As much as a team like mine for say, that is a debunking pragmatic team devoid of the mediums and hoo haw. Still in our hearts want to see something.
All we can do is reduce the amount of drama, the possible static and do as best we can to conduct a fair investigation to the client to provide a sensible opinion.
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#13 JIMOverSeer

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 03:36 PM

I guess my pet peeve is, if you don't believe in the supernatural and/or the afterlife, and you stand firm in denouncing all paranormal evidence, then why hang out on paranormal websites displaying proposed evidence? I mean, wouldn't those individuals feel more comfortable meeting on a skeptic/scientific website instead?

I firmly believe that hard core skeptics truly believe they are actually doing a public service by their attempts to prove all evidence is bunk. But for the most part they have no real proof to back up their side either. Most evidence cannot be proved one way or the other. Therefore, for the most part, it's just an opinion.

And opinions are wonderful and fruitful, on both sides! But what takes it over the top, is when the debunkers or even believers are driven to prove their side with no exception. Some evidence is bogus, some true........ but to always take a firm stance on one side is what's hurting both sides. If you can prove your side, that's fine... but if not, then it's back to simply an opinion. And there's nothing wrong with that.  :)

But I don't see us ever finding any tangible proof of the paranormal. There are things that are not meant to be shared with the masses, George Lutz told me that and he was right. As individuals however, we can know and see some pretty amazing things. But for a scientist to record proof in a controlled setting, not going to happen.  
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#14 Tantric KittenGStudy

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 03:55 PM

I think one day we will find technology that can measure them.  I mean, we can find quarks (but we have to look at them by how they change their environment rather than at them alone) so we should be able to find something that we can predictably say x is measured and it leads to y.  Videotape and recordings and the like are gratifying but they aren't going to be accepted as evidence because there will always be people, no matter how clear the anomaly, that will say it was falsified.  And there will always be people who try to fool others with image manipulation.  We need to look at other objective ways of measurement and observation and conduct experiments in locations where there is purported activity.

Replication in a laboratory isn't a reasonable expectation.  Unless you can put your hands (or other equipment) on something you can't force it to be where you want it.  But there are many things that were myth until we actually found them (like the "hobbit" people in Indonesia).
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. --Herm Albright

#15 siguie

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 07:40 PM

The way I see it there is a cool phenomenon that has been reported all over the world and for hundreds of years and attributed to everything from dead souls, demons and even just strange environmental energy effects AND it is a relatively unexplored phenomena. Why not just explore it because you can, see if it's real and see what you can figure out? :yes:

It really doesn't matter what anyone else believes or who has what "evidence" and it means even less that some group or other wont take it seriously :no: If you do not look into stuff you'll never know and unless you do it yourself you'll always be one of those people speculating about what others did and where's the fun in that.

I have never had any supernatural experiences BUT I like the concept and the toys so am quite happy hunting ghosts like Elmer Fudd :yes: If I ever do capture amazing ghost footage/data I completely expect to be treated as a potential hoaxer and have every bit of data scrutinized the way I do others.

The vast majority of scientific research doesn't "prove" anything or even have any immediate use BUT that doesn't mean it isn't useful or should not be done :no: Having goals is great and all but a lot of times the journey is the prize :yes:
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#16 CuriousGeorge

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 08:43 PM

Paranormal research could be likened to a circumstantial evidence case in court. In them, there is enough evidence that points to, or supports the conclusion of guilt. Without any direct evidence showing guilt.
Paranormal researchers, in a way, are gathering said circumstantial evidence. What we find doesn't technically support the proof of 'life after death', or 'spirits'. But without any successful debunking of said results, they do support the hypothesis. IF you are willing to consider the hypothesis as valid. Those who refuse to consider the results we gather as any thing but hooey, will never accept any evidence, even direct.
At least, until they die and find out for themselves. ;) ;)

#17 Vlawde

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 08:47 PM

If/when we discover or can access, or otherwise measure and prove other dimensions, we may have proof.
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#18 JIMOverSeer

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 02:37 AM

No proof there is and no proof there isn't.  ;)

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#19 KlaineyGStudy

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 08:41 PM

That picture is chilling Jim :yes:
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#20 JIMOverSeer

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 10:37 PM

That particular photo has been haunting the web for 20 years, that I know of... it's pretty cool.
I grabbed that copy from the web.  :crazy:




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