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Why Would Anyone Do This?


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#1 ChildofTwo

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 01:47 PM

Thought everyone would be interested in reading this one:

It was "Take Our Daughters and Sons to Work Day" at the Franklin Correctional Institution, and Sgt. Walter Schmidt wanted to give the kids an idea of what their parents do.

So he took out a handheld stun device and zapped them with 50,000 volts of electricity.

The children, whose ages are not available, reportedly yelped in pain, fell to the ground and grabbed red burn marks on their arms. One was taken to a nearby hospital.

DOC spokeswoman Jo Ellyn Rackleff said in an e-mail, "We believe that a number of children may have received a shock."

Schmidt, the arsenal sergeant at the Panhandle prison, said he asked parents for permission to shock the kids.

"When they said 'sure,' I went ahead and did it," he said by phone Friday.

Three days after the April 24 incident, Warden Duffie Harrison wrote Schmidt that his "retention would be detrimental to the best interests of the state" because he had "engaged in inappropriate conduct while demonstrating weapons Ö to several kids during a special event at the institution.''

"You tased at least two kids to demonstrate the EID, which is in direct violation of procedure and placed the department at risk of litigation," Harrison wrote.

Schmidt was terminated after 14 years with the Department of Corrections.

"It wasn't intended to be malicious, but educational," Schmidt said. "The big shock came when I got fired."

DOC Secretary Walt McNeil expressed concern for the children, whose names were not released, and ordered a full investigation into the matter.

Schmidt said he could not give more details about what happened because of the investigation.

Link:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/article997379.ece

Apparently this was an 'ok' thing to do because the children's parents gave permission to the guy.

#2 Caniswalensis

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 01:54 PM

If he wanted them to get an idea of what their parents do, he should have let the kids taser some inmates.

Unless these were the inmates kids, then I guess he did the right thing.

OK, OK!  I'm just kidding!

#3 ChildofTwo

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 02:02 PM

QUOTE(CaniswalensisGStudy @ Nov 20 2009, 04:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If he wanted them to get an idea of what their parents do, he should have let the kids taser some inmates.

Unless these were the inmates kids, then I guess he did the right thing.

OK, OK!  I'm just kidding!

Lol! 'Here kids, wanna try our new tasers on these inmates?' Good wholesome fun right there, huh? th_sarcastic_blum.gif

But seriously, why am I hearing so many horror stories about cops and their tasers?


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Posted 20 November 2009 - 02:13 PM

QUOTE
Schmidt, the arsenal sergeant at the Panhandle prison, said he asked parents for permission to shock the kids.


I have to ask what kind of parent would give permission for this....

My uncle is a big man, he's 6'2" and over 300 pounds. He's an ex-RCMP officer and he was tasered because they wanted the officers to experience what the offender would feel, and it took him down for a few minutes...I cannot see anyone doing this to a child!


#5 BlueAngel

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 02:31 PM

OMG What is wrong with people? Using a Tazer can be very dangerous, and to children? He was shocked he was fired? If one of those children died, he would never see the light of day again. I am wondering how he explained the "shock" to the parents? If he explained it in full, I could not imagine any parent, giving their permission. I was thinking he may have worded it to his advantage? OR we got some really dumb parents out there. These things make me sick, when it involves children. verymad.gif
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#6 curious78

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 02:36 PM

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"It wasn't intended to be malicious, but educational," Schmidt said. "The big shock came when I got fired."


No I think he got fired because he put the "big shock" to the kids!

Seriously what kind of parent would say "sure" to "Hey can I taser your kid"

Idiots......

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 02:40 PM

QUOTE(curious78 @ Nov 20 2009, 03:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Seriously what kind of parent would say "sure" to "Hey can I taser your kid"


I love my daughter dearly, but there are days where I would consider answering yes.... She just turned 13 and thinks the world owes her EVERYTHING.....

QUOTE
I am wondering how he explained the "shock" to the parents?

That is the million dollar question for sure BA. I agree with you, I don't imagine he would have explained it in detail...


#8 ChildofTwo

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 02:52 PM

I'm more concerned by the fact this was 'take your kids to work day' so these parents work there, and they probably know how strong these tasers perform, yet still invited the guy to tase their children. I also wonder why the officier never second-guessed if using a weapon on a child might be a bad idea.

All around this whole story is just one giant shock to me.


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Posted 20 November 2009 - 02:56 PM

QUOTE(ChildofTwo @ Nov 20 2009, 03:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm more concerned by the fact this was 'take your kids to work day' so these parents work there, and they probably know how strong these tasers perform, yet still invited the guy to tase their children. I also wonder why the officier never second-guessed if using a weapon on a child might be a bad idea.

All around this whole story is just one giant shock to me.


I agree. There are just some places that kids do not belong, and a penitentiary is definitely one of them.



#10 PumpkinWraith

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 05:20 PM

The thing is, didn't he have the common sense to think 'These are children'...

Surely any sensible person would realise that childrens bodies are not designed to have 50,000 volts passed through them let alone an adult.   I certainly would have not have given my permission.  And probably would have sued!

I used to work for both the Police and custody services years ago and it was bad enough taking CS Spray full on in the face as part of our training let alone tasers.  They have been introduced in Britain but not as part of regular equipment.  Only certain departments use them.  As for taking kids into a prison, that is a total no no here.  Mainly for security perposes.  There is no way we would have been alowed to take kids to work.
I wouldn't even use CS (or mace/pepper spray) on a child.  Even if was just a demonstraition.  Even though it is a solid substance it is still classed as a firearm as is a taser.   Would you use a firearm on an innocent child?  The parents also need to have some sense shocked into them.  

Do they not realise that a taser could in rare cases cause heart falure?  How would these parents feel if that happened.

Stupid people!

I'm sure ODC will have something to say about this story.

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#11 OffDutyCop

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 07:48 PM

QUOTE(ChildofTwo @ Nov 20 2009, 05:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Lol! 'Here kids, wanna try our new tasers on these inmates?' Good wholesome fun right there, huh? th_sarcastic_blum.gif

But seriously, why am I hearing so many horror stories about cops and their tasers?


I hate to split hairs, but an employee of the Department of Corrections is not a police officer.

As for the Taser device itself, I've found that in many instances, the media takes a perfectly justifiable use of the taser, and puts a negative spin on it.

In other instances, the officer has been led to believe that the Taser device should be deployed in lieu of having to physically take hold of a suspect or physically restrain someone in order to effect an arrest. The gray area comes into play with the fact that in some instances this would be appropriate, and in others, not so much. It's up to the officer to make an often split second judgement call on a case by case basis. While most officers are generally very apt at making such important decisions in a split second, they are still human, and at times, make mistakes.

In most agencies, the Taser device falls very low in the "Use of Force Continuum", often directly after "verbal commands" or "soft holds and restraints". This means that if you refuse to follow a lawful order, or resist an arrest in any fashion, the device can be deployed against you. Due to this low placement, the Taser sees almost daily usage and deployment in some high crime areas. With that much usage, you're bound to see a few instances of misuse. Just keep in mind that for every "bad tase" story that you hear, there are a million more that were perfectly justifiable and normal, and thus, of no interest to the media.

As for the case at hand.  This DOC employee showed a total lack of judgement when he deployed the weapon not only against children, but children who had committed no criminal offense. I don't think the weapon posed any true danger to the children, but I believe any reasonable person would agree that it's deployment in this situation was totally out of bounds and inappropriate.
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#12 ChildofTwo

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 08:18 PM

QUOTE(OffDutyCopGStudy @ Nov 20 2009, 10:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I hate to split hairs, but an employee of the Department of Corrections is not a police officer.


Sorry. I wouldn't really know, so thanks for correcting me. smile.gif

#13 BlueAngel

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 09:36 AM

I was married to a cop and I know all too well what they are up against at times. However using excessive force on young kids should be against the law. I saw on CNN the other day, that a police officer in NY, was in the midst of subduing a naked man on a balcony who was mentally ill. The man found a fluoresant long tube, and was waving it around. I didnt see that an immediate risk to the officers, as they were above him in another balcony and others on the street. He waved the bulb around, and the officer in charge told the cop to taser him. The 21 year veteran did as he was told. What wasnt expected is that the man, after being tazed fell over the balcony and plummeted to his death. The one particular officer was horrified. Apparently the entire force failed to back him up. Several years later the officer committed suicide. Anyway, my point being, these things should only be used in a situation where a police officer is in immediate danger. Below is another example. If a police officer cannot handle a little 10 year old girl, IMO he shouldnt be on the force. Didnt mean to get off topic, just happened to see this yesterday... wallbash.gif


Arkansas Cop Tasers 10-Year-Old Girl - CBS News

Edited by BlueAngel, 21 November 2009 - 09:44 AM.

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#14 OffDutyCop

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 10:14 AM

QUOTE(BlueAngel @ Nov 21 2009, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I was married to a cop and I know all too well what they are up against at times. However using excessive force on young kids should be against the law. I saw on CNN the other day, that a police officer in NY, was in the midst of subduing a naked man on a balcony who was mentally ill. The man found a fluoresant long tube, and was waving it around. I didnt see that an immediate risk to the officers, as they were above him in another balcony and others on the street. He waved the bulb around, and the officer in charge told the cop to taser him. The 21 year veteran did as he was told. What wasnt expected is that the man, after being tazed fell over the balcony and plummeted to his death. The one particular officer was horrified. Apparently the entire force failed to back him up. Several years later the officer committed suicide. Anyway, my point being, these things should only be used in a situation where a police officer is in immediate danger. Below is another example. If a police officer cannot handle a little 10 year old girl, IMO he shouldnt be on the force. Didnt mean to get off topic, just happened to see this yesterday... wallbash.gif


I'm not defending the officer who tased the 10 year old, as I'm still on the fence about it. I had the same mixed feelings about the officer earlier this year who tased a 70 or 80 something grandmother. However, you must look at both sides of the proverbial coin.

If I were to physically restrain a combative child or likewise combative elderly person, I stand a good chance of causing injury to that person accidentally. It would be nothing for me to accidentally dislocate a child's shoulder, or break an elderly woman's arm. In that instance, is it better for me to engage the combative subject "hand-to-hand", and risk injuring them, or is it better to deploy the taser, which has no true lasting effects?

I can't say in these situations, who is right, and who is wrong, as I wasn't there. I will tell you that I lost two teeth to a fourteen year old boy's sucker punch, and then did extensive damage to his mother's living room as I fought to subdue him, and to literally get the mother off of my back at the same time. Kids can, and will hurt you.
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#15 PumpkinWraith

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 12:03 PM

QUOTE
fourteen year old boy's sucker punch, and then did extensive damage to his mother's living room as I fought to subdue him, and to literally get the mother off of my back at the same time. Kids can, and will hurt you.


I also experienced this on more than one occasion.  I had a young boy restrained in the middle of a funfair.  I was off duty and unbeknown to me, I was restraining the instigator of a huge fight that had happened moments earlier.  Now he was trying to pick a fight with a teenager that I knew and was obviously intoxicated and by judging his strength and the way his eyes were reacting, he had taken an illegal substance.  He was swearing and started to shove the other kid who was not reacting.  He got a lot more agressive and when the kid told him to go away he punched him full on in the face.  So I grabbed his shoulder and put a lock on his arm.  He yelped but I was not using excessive force.  I just pushed him on the ground and pressed my knee into his back so he couldn't move.  Problem was he was so strong, I ended up lying on top of his back trying to prevent him from lashing out.  I was alone apart from friends who didn't have a clue about restraining someone.  All the time I was telling him to calm down but he didn't.  The more he struggled the more I lost my grip.  The boy suddenly twisted round on the floor and then punched me in the side of my mouth, he knocked me backwards.  The police that were supposed to be patrolling this funfair had both gone on a break at the same time so nowhere to be seen so I was not impressed.  I ended up down our local A&E having x-rays.  He hit me so hard he had managed to crack the opposite side of my jaw.  I still have a few problems but there wasn't a lot they could do about it at the time.

If I had been in uniform at the time, I would have probably deployed my ASP.  These can be very effective as a deterrant.  (From experience,  I was accidently hit in the thigh by an officer during training.  He hadn't heard the 'stop' command and carried on.  I couldn't put any weight on my leg for about a week.  They can be very dangerous if they are not used in the correct way.)  You can shatter bones which would be very unpleasant for both parties.  The difference would be if I suspected someone was carrying a knife or a gun etc. The thing is, I didn't actually feel that I was in any danger.  I knew how to control an agressive person but I truly didn't expect him to hit me.  If this boy was being agressive and threatening and I was carrying a taser,  I think I would still be wary about using it on a youth rather that CS Spray which is disabling in its own right.  Some situations are justified some aren't.  I do know that in that situation a few people would consider using one.  Probably why there is still an ongoing debate about whether or not officers should carry them.  

The difference between being Police and Custody staff means that you are working closely with prisoners all day and they do try to condition officers.  Certain people try to get you into their way of thinking and then call your bluff.   You cannot trust anyone in your care.  When I did that job we had to take prisoners into courts, usually on your own and usually cuffed to them.  But once in a court there were no cuffs, you were open to attack and escape was a always a big risk.  All we had was an alarm button.  Our prisons don't use tasers as far as I know but I'm pretty sure that it would be only used as a last resort.  

It is slightly different with children under a certain age (can't remember what that is now)  here and you can only use a small amount of restraint.  They are usually in the care of another authority when going to and from a prison. So I'm no longer familiar with the rules regarding that.  Tasers would most certainly be ruled out so having a Senior officer demonstrate one on a child is just madness in my opinion.

You use verbal force in the first then physical restraint. and lastly if absolutely necessary CS or ASP were used.  It was only very rarely that a weapon was deployed in any situation I have been in, in both cases.  

This makes me wonder if officers (Prisons or Police) should use them.  I do agree that they are a good idea....as anything is as a last resort,  But then if they are used in the wrong hands can be highly dangerous.  I'm kind of thinking both ways with this one.  Especially after finding this article....

http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/04/offici...an-and-do-kill/

Edited by PumpkinWraith-UK, 21 November 2009 - 12:05 PM.

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#16 Supernerd

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 12:18 PM

I work in a police station myself, and the cops here have tasers, which they are reluctant to use and only use them as a last resort. In the latest case it was a rampaging mental person waving a knife, and threatening to use it on other people and cops. The other option was to shoot him in the leg.
The taser was the better option and it worked. smile.gif
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#17 nothing lasts forever

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 05:11 AM

50,000 volts is the high peak in order to push the probes in a gap in clothing such as loose clothing, or heavy clothing, the 50,000 volts helps propel the probes across the air gap.

What the person receives is 1,200 volts, at a very low amperage of 0.0021 amps  not 50,000, which is less than a Christmas tree bulb. Itís not the volts that are dangerous, but the amps.

It's really harmless. I don't think the cop should have gotten fired, maybe some leave without pay after all, he had parental consent. We also have to take into consideration how the Media will offten twist, and misquote to make a story more juicy, if this situation was as bad as the story say, I'm pretty sure there would be a ton of lawsuits going on.

I've be hit with tasers befor, not for anything illegal, just messing around with friends, it's really not that bad, the "yelping" in pain is a very natural reaction to the sensation of the volts going through your body. The grabbing the "burn" areas again is a natural reaction, how many times have you stubbed your toe, or got a tiny paper cut and right after it happens, you grab that area?

Also, how many of us have grabbed onto an electric fence or hit one by accident at one point in our lives? Those fences pack more of a punch then a taser. Also one thing the paper doesn't mention, we're the kids holding hands? If they were this would lower the sensation that each person would get, don't believe me grab onto an electric fence alone, then again while hold the hand of on other person.

But at the end of the day, it was still a dumb choice by the cop.
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#18 Sly-Spectre

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 10:49 AM

QUOTE(CaniswalensisGStudy @ Nov 20 2009, 01:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If he wanted them to get an idea of what their parents do, he should have let the kids taser some inmates.Unless these were the inmates kids, then I guess he did the right thing.OK, OK!  I'm just kidding!
With that comment, I think of the movie The Hangover."OH! IN THE FACE! FEEL THE PAAAAAAAIIIN!"
QUOTE(OffDutyCopGStudy @ Nov 21 2009, 10:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not defending the officer who tased the 10 year old, as I'm still on the fence about it. I had the same mixed feelings about the officer earlier this year who tased a 70 or 80 something grandmother. However, you must look at both sides of the proverbial coin. If I were to physically restrain a combative child or likewise combative elderly person, I stand a good chance of causing injury to that person accidentally. It would be nothing for me to accidentally dislocate a child's shoulder, or break an elderly woman's arm. In that instance, is it better for me to engage the combative subject "hand-to-hand", and risk injuring them, or is it better to deploy the taser, which has no true lasting effects?I can't say in these situations, who is right, and who is wrong, as I wasn't there. I will tell you that I lost two teeth to a fourteen year old boy's sucker punch, and then did extensive damage to his mother's living room as I fought to subdue him, and to literally get the mother off of my back at the same time. Kids can, and will hurt you.
I'm pretty sure using a taser has a risk on an elderly person in the form of a heart attack, or they fall and break their hip. Best just to give them a big, movement binding hug.
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#19 OffDutyCop

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 01:56 PM

QUOTE(Sly-Spectre @ Dec 31 2009, 01:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
With that comment, I think of the movie The Hangover."OH! IN THE FACE! FEEL THE PAAAAAAAIIIN!"I'm pretty sure using a taser has a risk on an elderly person in the form of a heart attack, or they fall and break their hip. Best just to give them a big, movement binding hug.


Actually, as I understand it,  the Taser device has been tested on pacemakers and has been found to cause no interference or have any serious effect. To my knowledge, the only documented cases of a person going into cardiac arrest subsequent to the deployment of a Taser device involved the subjects having ingested illegal substances beforehand, and/or being in a state known as "Excited Delirium". Despite what some propaganda will suggest, "Excited Delirium" is a very real, and volatile state of being, as I've witnessed it firsthand.

I vehemently disagree with "a big movement binding hug" being the best way to resolve any situation involving a combative subject, young or old. Too many factors to list come into play when using this tactic.  I'm not saying it's not done, or that I haven't done it before, but it's definitely not "the best way" in my opinion.

Also keep in mind, that in any case, involving a person becoming combative with a police officer, a risk of injury to the suspect exists, and can not always be avoided. Most experienced officers, who are able to make quick decisions on their feet, try to find a way to minimize the risk or extent of injuries to both him/herself AND the offender, but can not always totally eliminate the possibility.  In these situations, an officer's duty is to protect the safety of him/herself, and any innocent third parties, before considering the safety of "the bad guy". This goes in any situation, regardless of the age, gender or race of the offending party.

It should go without saying, that no matter who you are, if you fight against a police officer, you're taking a definite risk.
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#20 EMPEROR_SO

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 05:22 PM

its all about fear

cops are afraid of the peaple

cops want the peaple to fear them showing what will happen to them if they are bad boys

peaple start hating cops

....

i dont live in the us i live in switzerland  and ill say fear isnt the solution start respecting each others instead