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#21 Jim@GhostStudy

 

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 11:38 AM

View PostEssiepessie, on 09 October 2017 - 12:28 AM, said:

Yes, the shutter speed causes motion blur
But,the two figures looks Victorian to me. Both are walking upstairs in my view.
The girl in white with her hair down in her Victorian sleeping dress... ^_^
And than the other is the "mother" walking up the stairs with her head down ( to look at the steps)  and holding up her amber/red looking dress.
Ow.. and i can see her black hair in a bun. That is what i see in this picture.
And another thing that i was wondering: what if it was a real person ( the mother) than she would't have bumped into the lady on the stairs because they are on the same place of walking.
And for the rest.. i don't see anything odd in the mirror or with the other persons. I also don't agree that the two lady's in the corner are looking at the "girl in PJ". I think they're both looking at something else. :)

Thank you Essiepessie... cool analysis!

As for the rest.... I think this is quite and amazing photo capture and I was kind of hoping it could be enjoyed for the possibilities. But I still feel like we're in a courtroom setting and we're about to sent the photographer off to jail.  :huh:
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#22 Vlawde

 

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 11:40 AM

My main intent in posting was educational, it was to show how normal photographic stuff could be misinterpreted as paranormal.
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#23 EVP

 

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 11:41 AM

View PostEssiepessie, on 09 October 2017 - 02:39 AM, said:

But that would't mean that the people are lying about the story, that there were no little children.

I'm not suggesting there is lying here whatsoever. I will quote why I believe there is a misconception.

Quote

I recently mentioned that people's memory for detail are exponentially affected as time passes.  I have no doubt with the amount of activity viewed clearly in this image, recall of details are compromised.

The event will be hazy if this was in fact as suggested the festivities of a wedding party. Photographers will be concentrating on making the shot and framing the image through the LCD/viewfinder and not making a mental note of all the activity in a busy environment. I can speak from experience here, I've photographed a half a dozen weddings and typically coming away with 1000 images per event that I later have to sift and post process.

I've contacted a couple of people for my little experiment. We will have 4 cellphones to perform this test. This will be a casual exploration BUT, I will have many pictures, EXIF, different distances measured and a plethora of lighting conditions to support my claiim. I feel now it's necessary to perform this since there seems some doubt from Jim & others. I will admit, this will not be a scientific experiment but without examples, data and a firm knowledge base to encourage this test, words are nothing more than an empty glass.

I thank Jim pushing me to form a method of validation to my claim.

View PostVlawdeGStudy, on 09 October 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

My main intent in posting was educational, it was to show how normal photographic stuff could be misinterpreted as paranormal.

Thank you Vlawde, I completely support your above statement.

Edited by EVP, 09 October 2017 - 11:57 AM.

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#24 Jim@GhostStudy

 

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 11:49 AM

View PostVlawdeGStudy, on 09 October 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

My main intent in posting was educational, it was to show how normal photographic stuff could be misinterpreted as paranormal.

Well, have we proved it's explainable then, Vlawde? ..........case closed?
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#25 Vlawde

 

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 12:03 PM

I don't know that it's case closed per se. I think we are pretty certain it's not paranormal, but discussing it (and EVP's planned experiment) is worth continuing
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#26 The_Dead_Shall_Rise_Again

 

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 01:19 PM

i think a healthy discussion like this really adds to any forum and should continue.It is a good picture worth hearing all possible explanations about.

#27 kevinscan

 

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 03:29 PM

I found some examples of camera blur just for interest.
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A man standing still at the top of an escalator while other people are getting off, long exposure.

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A shopping mall with   long exposure, almost everyone on the stairs is blurred

Just examples for comparison..
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#28 MortimerGraves

 

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 07:07 PM

You know, it was long exposure that caught the Cottingley Fairies pictures as not as described.  Here, however, the camera shutter may have dragged by accident, not set for slow speed. If someone thought I was saying the shutter was deliberately set to a slow speed, I apologize. The shutter definitely moved slow enough to cause the blur. I think the post about the mother having multiple kids rushing down the steps is probably correct.

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#29 Jim@GhostStudy

 

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 09:05 PM

I don't have an issue with the suggested motion blur... I can see the blur. But as for a ghost/s in the photo, can we say with a certainty that there is not a supernatural aspect involved? Or are we just making a judgement based on probability? That's what I need to know.

So again, show me indisputable truth that this is only a blurred photo. If not, then we need to put all considerations back on the table, right?  ;)
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#30 EVP

 

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 09:50 PM

I will be performing the "long exposure" experiment hopefully on Thursday. I do appreciate the opposition here but to make this fair, if you are debating in opposition please provide proof by data, references including test procedures as I am doing to support your claim.

The one constant that I will be using that I hope is used universally is auto focus & program mode for exposure. Most people who use cellphones exclusively do not set ISO, shutter speed or F-Stop with their cellphones or understand the exposure triangle.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan

FTR- I am not debating the possibility of the "paranormal". I am merely showing results that can be anticipated with photographic equipment under a set of controlled circumstances.

Edited by EVP, 09 October 2017 - 10:34 PM.

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#31 Essiepessie

 

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 04:40 AM

Looking forward to see the pictures of your experiment EVP.
I have looked for my own examples of long exposure pictures. We are in a renovation.. so the disk is "somewere". so i can't show anything.
But it's always a good thing to have such examples as comparison. not only for this case, but maybe for others in the future.
This is a interesting post :-). Still in my opinion it can be both the explanations. But i feel 90% long exposure and 10% a paranormal thing.
I noticed that a few responded at my sentence: "But that would't mean people where lying about the story".
I'm sorry if my word "lying" wasn't the right choice of words. Sometimes i find it difficult to find the correct translated word to express what i mean.
I agree with all the feedback. The better word in this is : "misconception". :good:

#32 KlaineyGStudy

 

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 06:50 AM

I don't know if this is any help but here it is!

Quote


Ben Hansen

Here's the Error Level Analysis I did on it. Notice that nothing really jumps out where the ghost girl is, indicating a lesser chance that it's a composite layer and probably did come straight from the phone.

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This is some of what I sent the author of the story with my initial findings...

Hey Ed!

So here's what I've been able to come up with so far. In order to do this complete justice, it would be helpful to know a few more things if you happen to get these answers.

When did they review the photos? My guess is that they didn't look at them until later that night or even several days later, but not right when they were taking them. That's the main problem with naturally explainable photos. People can't remember who was with their group, who was in the room, who walked in front of them, etc. and a long time passes before they look at the photo.

Here's what I know and think I know. lol. As you may be aware, the staircase of the Stanley Hotel is the location of many ghostly sightings. This photo got a lot of attention and was taken just last year:


I attached a photo that I took of the staircase in 2012. I think I've stayed there at least 4 times for various paranormal conferences and investigations. The carpet has changed, but I included it to show an important size perspective of the railing I'll get to in a minute. The name tags people are wearing I believe are the tags they give people who participate in their regular tours.

My first impression of the photo is that it's way too good to be true. Obvious lens flares from the bright ceiling and wall lighting are present, but this figure is too defined and well-placed to easily dismiss the anomaly as an artifact of the camera or lighting. It looks as though there clearly is a human figure standing on the first step from the top. I decided it was highly unlikely that this was a smudge or lens aberration of the camera so the next step was to look for clues of hoaxing on the digital file itself. Looking into the EXIF data that's created in the file when the camera takes the photo, I honestly expected to find obvious signs of manipulation. It's true that EXIF data can be easily changed with software, but my experience is that most hoaxers don't take it to that level of sophistication. While I don't rule out that this photographer could have changed the EXIF data to erase evidence of editing, I was not able to find any overt evidence of this.

If the originally EXIF data is truly intact, I was able to confirm that the photo was taken with a LG V20 phone. That particular phone actually has 4 cameras (2 forward facing and 2 rear facing). The rear facing camera that was used is the wide angle lens at a 6 megapixel setting at a 1/11th of a second shutter speed. The shutter speed becomes important because as every photographer knows, the use of a tripod is recommended for shooting anything that's slower than 1/30th of a second. Otherwise, we start to see motion blur in the photo which is very apparent in this image. With the low lighting, the camera tried to compensate by delaying the shutter and we end up with ghost images in all over the place. Look at the boy in the maroon shirt next to the boy with tan pants sitting on the back bench. It's very difficult to find his legs because they're in motion and seemingly transparent. In the second photo that was provided, that boy appears now to be standing still and facing the mirror. In the anomalous photo, there's also one or two people sitting on the second set of stairs while a woman walks down to the side of them. The molding of the wall behind is visible through their form because the people are in motion and the shutter speed of the camera can't keep up. Could this also be the explanation for the ghostly figure that appears to be a female on the stairs? Is she actually just a real person that the photographer forgot was there? Are we certain she wasn't added digitally as a composite layer in editing software?

I then did an analysis of compression of the jpeg file through ELA (Error Level Analysis). When jpeg images are resaved, areas where editing has taken place often leave clues due to the different rates of how the image is compressed. The attached photo was processed to highlight edges and textures where editing may have happened. As you can see, the image looks pretty blended and uniform without any areas really standing out. The dark black areas are the lightbulbs. Solid whites and blacks compress easily so they usually show up dark, but everything else is pretty flat in contrast. This further supports that the anomalous figure may actually have been part of the original photo. So who is it?

When you take into consideration how short the side railing is, this figure appears to be the height of a child. Even though the railing rises at the top of the stairs, their head is not even quite to the level of the banister. It looks as if the child has long hair and is wearing a light colored dress or even a coat. Her right leg may be exposed as it looks like skin tone is showing below the knee. If you use your imagination, it almost looks like you can see her right shoe which looks oversized or in motion. It also appears as if she is carrying something in her right hand that is reddish in color. I'm not sure if there's a strap visible as well, perhaps it could be a purse. I very often get photos from people who capture real people we were able to identify in their images, but they just didn't remember seeing them at the time. Another possible clue that this could be a tangible, living person is that there appears to be a shadow on the stairs trailing off below and to the left of the figure. This is exactly where we would expect a shadow of the girl to be if it were coming from the primary light source on the ceiling.

A few other things that seemed noteworthy are the fact that the second photo without the girl has a different white balance setting. The EXIF data shows that both photos were taken with the automatic exposure and white balance settings on. The second photo was also taken only 8 seconds after the first one and only slightly zoomed in, but the color of the ceiling is noticeably different. This could indicate that some editing took place in the anomalous photo; but again, it would take a very good hoaxer to erase the clues in the file data and leftover compression artifacts. Also, the second photo has a water bottle sitting on top of the banister and it's not there when the ghost girl comes up the stairs 8 seconds before. Could the water bottle belong to the woman coming down the stairs and she set it down within those few seconds? Or was the EXIF data of the photos changed so that we're lead to believe only a few seconds had passed between the taking of the two pictures. If a hoaxer were that sophisticated, this would be a nice touch to suggest that this was a ghost that appeared only for a brief moment. I have to admit, if it's a real ghost or a real little girl wearing a white dress in a haunted hotel... if one passed me by on the stairs, I think I would take note of it! This one has me puzzled and that's not a bad thing.

Let me know if you need anything else from me by way of quotes or explanations. Let me know if you end up running the story. Thanks for reaching out Ed!

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#33 Vlawde

 

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 07:52 AM

Good find!
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#34 EVP

 

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:56 AM

Klainey, thank you for finding this. There is plenty of information here that I will try to imitate but in preliminary after reading his analysis, there are flaws in his analogy. I will keep this short and concentrate on the experiment that hopefully takes places this week. but I'd like to make a few points.
  • I have never once indicated this was a doctored image.
  • It is mentioned that a tripod is required with images less than 1/30th of a second. The answer to that statement is "it depends" on the focal length of the lens used and whether there is image stabilization built in. Regardless and this is "KEY", even if a camera is stabilized by using a tripod,  it has no effect on motion blur. A tripod only prevents "camera shake".
  • The image in question is said to be taken at 1/11 second. That is a VERY slow shutter speed that I can say with confidence will blur humans in movement. That also indicates very low light level when the image was taken.
  • He spoke of different white balance in the two images and felt that it might have been from editing. No, not necessarily, cameras in general make an assessment when in auto mode and their can be variations from one image to the next. In fact letting the camera apply what white balance is sees is generally not done because of inconsistent and inaccuracy. That is white a most professional photographers will a apply a "white custom white balance because cameras aren't that smart in an auto mode.
There are several factors involved that create motion blur but I will include that with the experiment rather than discuss this now. Thanks again.

Edited by EVP, 10 October 2017 - 10:26 AM.

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#35 EVP

 

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:31 AM

View PostEssiepessie, on 10 October 2017 - 04:40 AM, said:

Looking forward to see the pictures of your experiment EVP.
I have looked for my own examples of long exposure pictures. We are in a renovation.. so the disk is "somewere". so i can't show anything.
But it's always a good thing to have such examples as comparison. not only for this case, but maybe for others in the future.
This is a interesting post :-). Still in my opinion it can be both the explanations. But i feel 90% long exposure and 10% a paranormal thing.
I noticed that a few responded at my sentence: "But that would't mean people where lying about the story".
I'm sorry if my word "lying" wasn't the right choice of words. Sometimes i find it difficult to find the correct translated word to express what i mean.
I agree with all the feedback. The better word in this is : "misconception". :good:

Essiepessie, I took no offense whatsoever and understand how you may have inappropriately used the word "lying". Truth be told I see you are from NL and I must say you convey your thoughts well. I can only speculate English is a second language.

Edited by EVP, 10 October 2017 - 10:33 AM.

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#36 Menet

 

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:48 AM

Huh.  There is some good information coming through.  Thank you, Kevin Scan, and I would like to see your work EVP.   My first impulse was to toss it out because of the lighting and then the motion blur.   It made my eyes hurt.   It will remain anomalous.  And a good one too.

I'll bet there was at least one person in that crowd, on the landing, that was paying attention.  Too bad they didn't look hard enough but nice catch with the additional information, Klainey!

Lighting.  Ugh!
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#37 Essiepessie

 

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:49 AM

Thank you EVP for your kind reply. And yes, English is my second language :)
I was browsing on facebook and i like this page called : " the hauntist". And they did a little article today about this picture! Is'nt that a coincidence :)

#38 MortimerGraves

 

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 05:30 PM

View PostJim@GhostStudy, on 09 October 2017 - 09:05 PM, said:

I don't have an issue with the suggested motion blur... I can see the blur. But as for a ghost/s in the photo, can we say with a certainty that there is not a supernatural aspect involved? Or are we just making a judgment based on probability? That's what I need to know.

So again, show me indisputable truth that this is only a blurred photo. If not, then we need to put all considerations back on the table, right?  ;)
Nothing was ever taken off the table. Could this be paranormal? Yes. Is it more likely to have a good scientific explanation? Of course. Even if the motion blur has a 99% likelihood there is still that pesky 1% chance of the paranormal. Extraordinary claims have to have extraordinary proof. The most probable solution has been given. There is still room for all of us to be wrong.

God bless
Graves

Edited by MortimerGraves, 11 October 2017 - 05:32 PM.

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#39 EVP

 

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 03:38 AM

Without going into any details my experiment will have to be moved to another time because of a health issue. Sorry about that.

Edited by EVP, 12 October 2017 - 03:38 AM.

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#40 lorac61469

 

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 10:56 AM

View PostEVP, on 12 October 2017 - 03:38 AM, said:

Without going into any details my experiment will have to be moved to another time because of a health issue. Sorry about that.
Hope everything is ok.





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